I have no idea, Mike. Malesiana Tropicals comes to mind, but they can't be the only ones. Robert, JungleMike, do you know anything about this?
Back on topic: Charles Clarke just wrote to me re: my invitation to partake in this here discussion. He'll try to get around to post a reply later this week.
I think Malesiana Tropicals is the only exporter of pitcher plant in Sarawak. However, the local commercial collectors can go to collect as many as they wish & sell those rare N. northiana & others in the weekend market without getting any trouble from the authority. I guess there is no enforcement officer from the authority to check the plant which they sell in the local market whether it is a protected species or not. And also, 99% of the local folks do not know much about pitcher plant and also, do not know which one is endangered species.
Last Edit: Sept 3, 2007 17:02:54 GMT 7 by junglemike
I visited the "Sunday" market on our last day in Kuching (it's actually on Saturday). Only 1 flower seller was selling Nepenthes - N. reinwardtiana, 2 sorry looking plants hidden away. I spoke with them all and learned that they used to sell a lot of Nepenthes but recently Forestry had been clamping down on local sales of wild-collected plants.
One might surmise that this could be due to a clean-up operation before the Nepenthes summit. If that's so, then the summit already achieved a positive effect on local conservation attitudes as a peripheral result of it's very existence.
Post by agustinfranco on Sept 6, 2007 13:36:42 GMT 7
I would like to say, in response to Rob's comment on the effects of the first Nepenthes summit, that there is more than one way to achieve conservation of a particular plant or species. So far, the awareness of the effects of wild collection of plants and seeds is one way of visualizing conservation, regardless the different opinions given in this forum. Perhaps it will not be, as effective as, some of you may think, since Nepenthes are not found only in Sarawak, as all of you know, but in other countries as well. These countries have different laws and perhaps different priorities in life. Nepenthes are found in mostly third world countries, where a piece of bread or a chicken has far more value than a nepenthes plant (poverty is a serious issue); thus, Illegal trading will continue one way or another, no matter how severe the penalties on those involved are imposed.
However, there is another way, perhaps with far more positive effects for conservationists: NEPENTHES CULTURING TECHNIQUES.
If we tackle the proper growing conditions for every single species on the planet, even illegally collected plants would survive and while these plants are not growing in the wild anymore, they'll be in someone's house reaching maturity to produce flowers. the problem lies in the fact that most of these plants die after collection, perhaps due to lack of proper cultivation techniques (or proper knowledge)
I am sure some of you may reject this proposal as it does not a thing for illegal collection of plant material, but at least, it will guarantee that a Nepenthes species X would be alive somewhere rather than dead. Which is worse? a live plant or a dead one!
As a result, i'd like to propose that the next Nepenthes summit would involve some culturing aspects so all nepenthes growers of the world can share and practice them
Conservation: I learned during my stay in Kuching that once an industry becomes so big that it can afford one-time bribes which exceed the annual income of the people supposed to control said industry, it's almost impossible to stop the moral and environmental landslide (pun not intended). This is what's happening with the logging business in Sarawak and other places; and it's also happening in the Nepenthes/orchid/whatever other wild plants have you-business; only on a smaller scale.
In this light, borneo's report on the wild-collection clampdown is quite encouraging; and I seriously hope is wasn't a flash in the pan, but the start of a positive development. As much as the Nepenthes Summit might have been good publicity for Sarawak, media response was quite low-key (print and online); so it looks like the Summit wasn't important enough for the government to warrant such special police action. Ergo, I would tend to believe that the clampdowns were actually regular (if recently amended) policy that happened to coincide with the Summit. Which is cause for some hope, I guess.
Horticultural themes for the next summit: Yes, please! There was a workshop on Nepenthes cultivation - which I didn't attend - but horticulture, or horticultural techniques, rather, was underrepresented in the conference per se. So let's come up with some topics for the next gathering! (in a new thread)
Post by Dave Evans on Sept 15, 2007 10:24:18 GMT 7
Hello Two Ton,
Actually, if you go throught the CPN, hobbiest with species to discribe can probably get a latin translation from someone at the ICPS who knows Latin...
(Besides, weren't some of the last new cp's been described by amateurs?)
Really? Who? Descriptions of new species (flora or fauna) must be done in Latin. That rules out a lot of amateurs. Also, they must have strong knowledge about all the other known species to be able to decide whether something is actually a new species...
I'm not saying it's impossible for amateurs, but it shrinks the number of possible candidates considerably.
These are some really bad companies, all shells of Plantron Inc., so don't order from them unless you want small and dead plants they don't want to refund:
Farmer Seed and Nursery
Four Seasons Nursery
House of Wesley
Richard Owen Nursery
How do garbage companies like these stay in business, ripping people off year
Latin descriptions are a fine example of what is wrong with taxonomy today. Let's require a dead language! This makes no sense to the less romantic of us. Taxonomy needs to lose the "Orthodox Church" attachment to ritual, shake off the museum dust and get up to date in attitude and procedure.
RFC and Gus: the problem with Romance languages is that they're TOO romantic. Descriptions would easily get out of hand :-)
Although I don't understand taxonomy, there's one pro-Latin argument Matthew Jebb told me at the Summit which sounds very solid to me: the Latin dictionary cannot be changed anymore, whereas modern languages change all the time, and at a very fast pace. An English word that used to mean "merry" fifty years ago means "homosexual" today, and that's only one of the thousands of examples. And then there are all those neologisms that fatten our encyclopedias by six to ten pages every year. And all that is true for EVERY living language.
So, from a linguist's (and that's what I am) point of view, having an unchangeable set of absolutely fixed terms is invaluable to prevent misunderstandings - even in the future.
A rational but non-persuasive argument serving to further insulate the profession from the public. One only needs to look at other areas of science, requiring detailed descriptive language, to see that this argument holds no water and is simply intended to protect the archaic traditions of taxonomic description from the iconoclast.
With todays technology, it should be written and able to translate into every language! Click on a language and it translates into that!
I hope you're joking. All due respect, Mike, but if this were true, I'd be out of a job tomorrow. As it is, there is no software currently on the planet that actually translates anything into something that could even remotely be viewed as an acceptable translation.
Here in East Asia, the Motherland of the linguistically handicapped, "translator" software programs and handheld devices abound, and they're all, repeat, ALL, utter trash. Languages are much more than a string of words, and that's what will always bring any of today's "translation" software to their knees. If you speak more than one language, you can spend months having riotous fun on Babelfish :-)
Today's technology ain't what it's cracked up to be. Maybe in a hundred years.
Leilani: You have a point there. Still, I like Mr. Jebb's view. I'll do a little research - this must have been discussed by others before us :-)
Post by phissionkorps on Sept 18, 2007 12:13:07 GMT 7
I think it would be nice to get descriptions in multiple languages, or at least English...the official language of the world. Clicking on something and having it translated would be totally practical with species descriptions since the "sentences" are only a few words long, and it's hard to get a crazy translation when a sentence is nothing but "hairy leaf". Here's an excerpt from the stenophylla description:
"Folia mediocria petiolata, lamina lanceolata v. oblonga, nervis longitudinalibus utrinque 2-3, v4g1na caulem fere totum amplectente non decurrente v. caulis 1/2 amplectente in alas 2 decurrente"
What the hell is v4g1na latin for? I also think it'd be great if species descriptions were made available online, instead of in books that cost $100+ that you'd have to buy multiple books just to get a description for everything, or only in journals, as I haven't the time or the money to order every single journal that every single description appears in.
Post by agustinfranco on Sept 18, 2007 13:30:32 GMT 7
Nice thought, PhissionKorps, but i wonder whether it'd be helpful, since description of the same taxon by two different taxonomists could be completely different and may end up with different conclusions. If you find that out on books, i can imagine the same mess being encountered online.
Here's an excerpt from the stenophylla description: "Folia mediocria petiolata, lamina lanceolata v. oblonga, nervis longitudinalibus utrinque 2-3, v4g1na caulem fere totum amplectente non decurrente v. caulis 1/2 amplectente in alas 2 decurrente" What the hell is v4g1na latin for?
Post by phissionkorps on Sept 18, 2007 23:50:10 GMT 7
I think descriptions of taxa, but especially species, would only stand to improve if subjected to the public eye. Let's say you think the leaves of one species are hisute, but I think they're hispid. If our respective descriptions are available for all the see/criticize, a concensus would be reached, at least eventually.
Once again as well, phylogenetic work really needs to be done in Nepenthes. Unfortunately there is very very little, if any, fossil record (maybe some of the woody stems?), but I think we can infer phylogenies by extrapolating possible ancestral traits from the derived ones. I think under the scrutiny of phylogenetics, we would see that many species descriptions aren't even vaild. We would also undoubtedly find that certain "species" are in fact multiple species.
Med school is KILLING ME. If you want me to see something, PM me. I don't read everything on here like I used to.
If you speak more than one language, you can spend months having riotous fun on Babelfish :-)
I can only speak one language and babelfish is a hoot! If Mr. Aga is there, you use it don't you? I know the Italian CP society has it on their page and it's funny to read how the translations turn out! But in all seriousness, I can sorta get the meanings behind the babelfish mess and somewhat understand the Italian CP site, it's got some great pics and is alotta fun!
thatoneplantboi: Hey guys, I'm new to growing nepenthes, I'm getting a mini indoor greenhouse to grow them in. What kind of light should I use for them? Also, if you could provide a link to a product, it would be very much appreciated
Oct 5, 2017 10:16:29 GMT 7
borneo: Yes, they work superbly. But you don't need expensive lights, cheap ones work well too.
Sept 2, 2018 14:34:57 GMT 7
mylesg: i havent checked in here for a while, why does it seem all the CP forums have lost their once strong activity? the trade/sale section used to be so active and now its a ghost town. where is everybody hanging out these days for a strong online CP community?
Dec 9, 2018 3:15:01 GMT 7
mylesg: Happy holidays to everyone out there!
Dec 26, 2018 0:23:13 GMT 7
lance: Everyone left the forums and moved to facebook groups.
Oct 2, 2019 12:09:05 GMT 7
mylesg: yes, facebook groups will never have same feel as this place once did
Nov 3, 2019 8:34:22 GMT 7
etiennecancio: perhaps we can try to revitalize the old forums? i always found them to be much more convenient than facebook groups at least hah
Nov 4, 2019 17:01:25 GMT 7
mylesg: i refuse to abandon this place, i am posting in my grow thread with many photos and always there to answer any questions just built new grow room and tons of pitcher shots!
Nov 6, 2019 21:17:59 GMT 7
vidyut: hey mylesg. glad to hear that. Love this forum. Facebook can't organize knowledge like this. Will participate as much as I can.
Nov 25, 2019 5:37:09 GMT 7
vidyut: Photobucket has ruined this place and many other forum archives with years and years of photos worth referencing now blurred. Priceless information hostage to services once free, begging for adoption, arbitrarily monetized.
Nov 25, 2019 16:28:58 GMT 7
bonfield: This forum is almost at 13K total threads, I can't wait to read the topic that pushes it past the mark!
Dec 3, 2019 8:27:58 GMT 7
arvin555: I do not like FB forums because it is difficult to read back Archives. Let us keep this forum alive!
Dec 9, 2019 11:14:09 GMT 7
mylesg: just posted ton of new pics in my thread!
Feb 9, 2020 3:40:25 GMT 7