Yes there was differences noticed when we first received our 2 plants. The pitchers and leaves were noticeably different but was advised to grow them out as we did not know which was the species. Our 2 plants have half dead lowers on them at present but yes the differences in colour and peristome size is evident. The hybrid has more markings and the supposed species has a larger peristome. We have discussed the plants with BE over a month ago and Rob said he would discuss it further with Ch'ien Lee, as BE did not have a copy of the original description either. So at this time, we are not sure which the hybrid is but it does seem likely that the species is the one in the first photos we displayed. If this is the case, then except for capslock's plant but we would have to see the leaves etc., all the others appear to be hybrids(frogsintn2's looks like it is a hybrid with N.veitchii) and yes some possibly complex as 'Eagle Eye' lol said. Yet, as I was informed, it is understood that this is the chance one takes when purchasing seedlings grown from wild collected seed. Unless some one has a copy of the official description, we will just have to wait for Ch'ien's or Rob's input.
Hi again, Just to confuse matters a bit more, I was looking at Clarke and Lee's 'Pitcher Plants of Sarawak' and their illustration of a young platychila has (seemingly) obtuse leaves and a lower pitcher peristome with angular points, similar to my plant Another hybrid? Cheers, T.
I was going to make the same note Tonyc. The upper pitchers shown on Clarke's book are very "speckled" too AND the leave 'apex (third picture for those who own the book) seem to be between the two apexes shown by Geogg and Andrea (maybe closer to the leave's apex of the supposed hybrid, though).
As Christerb suggested this species might not be as uniform as one thinks (just trying to give some hope to most of us ;D !)
Being a platychila grower myself (i have a very young one), i'm looking forward to see the original description.
Your post just beat mine onto the forum and I had not seen your photo. Yours does look like what we are calling the species but I cannot see the tendril attachment in your photo. In our observation, the hybrid with N.fusca, which I think is the one that we have, has a blunt leaf(rounded square) with just a slight point from where the tendril leaves the leaf blade on the rosette pitchers. The species leaves on the rosette taper to a point. The leaves change quite a bit as the plant climbs to what you see in our photos. The dead give away in the fusca hybrid is the appendage under the front of the lid. This is also stated in the book by Charles Clarke and Ch'ien Lee you mentioned.
To clear up any confusion, we are not yet selling any TC clones of this species and in view of the confusion that has arisen, we will probably grow them out before listing them, or sell them with a disclaimer. In fact, any time we release something new from seed, anyone who buys it takes a chance of it being a hybrid. Either that or wait until people have grown out the plants before buying any. We do our best to ensure things are true and not hybrids but with seed-grown plants one would have to be clairvoyant to be sure.
However, I received a reply from Ch'ien. He's absolutely definite that both the plants in the photos I forwarded to him from Geoff are N. platychila. Also the younger plants displayed on this thread are not hybrids either. He says that they fall within the range of infaraspecific variation for N. platychila. They are the words of the guru, the guy who discovered and described the species, I'm just relaying them. Ch'ien has also observed the natural hybrid between N. platychila in the wild and says these plants are not that hybrid.
..another thing I have noticed on my largest plant and I think I can see this in OsmosisUKs' as well, is that the pitcher tendril is inserted slightly below the leaf apex and the apex on most leaves is slightly emarginate. Geoff is this observed in your 'hybrid'?
Last Edit: Aug 12, 2007 21:53:26 GMT 7 by threeskins
I'll discuss further with Ch'ien when I meet him later this week. There's no point e-mailing him about it now as he's rather busy with the Nepenthes Summit. I expect he probably does have many more photos. One would have to have the description to hand to be sure about this, but as he wrote the description and says he's quite sure, that's good enough for me, unless someone can come up with concrete evidence that he's wrong or he changes his mind. Seems we're probably dealing with a species that has considerable infraspecific variation which is hardly unusual in the Nepenthes world.
To use an example, if Nepenthes rafflesiana had been discovered recently and people started growing plants from seed based upon seeing very few photos on the internet, I guess a lot of people might be surprised. Hardly any two raffs are the same. One of the fascinations of the genus IMO.
Thanks for the additional info in this excellent thread.
If this would be a simple hybrid one would think that there would be traces of a glandular crest as well on the hybrid (like the one present on the front of the lid), and maybe narrower lid as well, considering that this is a trait for N. fusca.
Regarding the leaf apex I read that the rosette leafs on N. jacquelineae is supposed to be obtuse while the wining leaf could be obtuse as well as acute. This can of course not be transferred directly over to N. platychila, but might show that there could be more variation in a species.
It is an issue, as seed grown plants preceed tc clones. So what we are seeing as seed origin plants can be rectified and recognized in tc plant offerings.
Seems like this will happening, and I am quite sure that would have happened anyway despite you continuous whining about tc.
Hopefully, when more plants matures we will get better understanding.
Last Edit: Aug 13, 2007 1:09:33 GMT 7 by christerb
Hopefully this means the (I have a one track mind, lol) that with all the confusion over its origin, the current run of platychilas will come down in price, and I can go ahead and buy a couple. I never realized how cool of a species/hybrid this is. Are these moderate growers, or are they difficult?
And about the parentage, all the ones I've seen seem to lack some of the dominant features of fusca/maxima complex species (assuming these are likely hybrids with fusca over any other species), such as the lid crest. I think I've only seen evidence of the crest in one, that being EP's specimen with the large amount of spotting in the uppers. Though it seems to be slightly present, the lid also lacks a narrower shape like the fusca parent. However, aside from a narrower peristome, some/most fusca have a similar pitcher shape to platychila and eymae even. So if we are to understand that a pure platychila should have a very wide peristome, the uppers in a complex fusca hybrid would likely have similar shape to the pure species, but with differences in color, and a smaller peristome. I would also expect the lids to be smaller, but who knows how complex of a hybrid it may be...
“Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance.” “The greatest ignorance is to reject something you know nothing about” “Nothing in the world is more dangerous than a sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.”
Post by phissionkorps on Aug 13, 2007 3:50:28 GMT 7
Seems we're probably dealing with a species that has considerable infraspecific variation which is hardly unusual in the Nepenthes world.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: due to the polymorphism in the genus, which is always present at least to some degree, I am not a fan of basing taxonomy solely on morphology. Though it provides a good starting ground, grouping and classfying species solely on what they look like and nothing else went out with Linnaeus. I wish someone in the nep world would hop on the phylogenetics bandwagon.
While I respect both Ch'ien's and Rob's opinion I must question that Ch'ien has said that both of our plants are the species. Come on, please! In Ch'ien and Charles stated words from their book 'Pitcher Plants of Sarawak' - A Pocket Guide, 'The lower pitchers are nearly cylindrical in shape and at first glance can easily be confused with N.fusca, though they(N.platychila) have a slightly wider peristome and wide lid without appendages'. The appendage is clearly evident in the plant we are calling the hybrid in both lower and upper pitchers and also noticeable in the photo of osmosisuk's plant. Not to mention the amount of decurrent leaf blade on the stem of the species compared to the hybrid. Taxonomists can't have it both ways. A species has a set of defining characteristics or it doesn't. We have heard and read many descriptions where a species is either this or can be that(by this I mean where the leaf, for example, is described as one shape but can be another shape as well), to me this is just an out to cover the hybrid. Again the word polymorphism of Nepenthes pitchers has been brandished around for many years. We all know that Nepenthes pitchers change from rosette pitchers to lowers to uppers with the occasional intermediate but the factors that make a species a species are repeatedly observable. In Rob's analogy of N.rafflesiana. While this may be true, a N.rafflesiana can be recognised as such, at a glance, in all it's forms. However here, using the same analogy, we are comparing a N.raff to a N.xhookeriana and saying they're both N.raff. The term phylogenetics has also been used here as a determining factor. In my understanding, even if there was a lineage determined between N.fusca and N.platychila, which there probably is, the fact that they have been separated into 2 separate species still gives way to hybrids occurring both primary and complex. Any Nepenthes species that is in the vicinity of another species in the wild and is capable of hybridising will always have plants that look like the true species yet have genes of the other species. These may be a minute percentage but they are there. That is why I have always posed the question to collectors who want to collect nothing but species, 'Where does a species begin and the hybrid stop'? It comes down to what one is happy accepting as a species. It will be interesting to breed two of what seem to be the true species of N.platychila,(IMO), and look at the progeny. Or else you could alternatively buy a look alike as pictured below. If these were a species, I am sure there would be a lot of interest!
thatoneplantboi: Hey guys, I'm new to growing nepenthes, I'm getting a mini indoor greenhouse to grow them in. What kind of light should I use for them? Also, if you could provide a link to a product, it would be very much appreciated
Oct 5, 2017 10:16:29 GMT 7
borneo: Yes, they work superbly. But you don't need expensive lights, cheap ones work well too.
Sept 2, 2018 14:34:57 GMT 7
mylesg: i havent checked in here for a while, why does it seem all the CP forums have lost their once strong activity? the trade/sale section used to be so active and now its a ghost town. where is everybody hanging out these days for a strong online CP community?
Dec 9, 2018 3:15:01 GMT 7
mylesg: Happy holidays to everyone out there!
Dec 26, 2018 0:23:13 GMT 7
lance: Everyone left the forums and moved to facebook groups.
Oct 2, 2019 12:09:05 GMT 7
mylesg: yes, facebook groups will never have same feel as this place once did
Nov 3, 2019 8:34:22 GMT 7
etiennecancio: perhaps we can try to revitalize the old forums? i always found them to be much more convenient than facebook groups at least hah
Nov 4, 2019 17:01:25 GMT 7
mylesg: i refuse to abandon this place, i am posting in my grow thread with many photos and always there to answer any questions just built new grow room and tons of pitcher shots!
Nov 6, 2019 21:17:59 GMT 7
vidyut: hey mylesg. glad to hear that. Love this forum. Facebook can't organize knowledge like this. Will participate as much as I can.
Nov 25, 2019 5:37:09 GMT 7
vidyut: Photobucket has ruined this place and many other forum archives with years and years of photos worth referencing now blurred. Priceless information hostage to services once free, begging for adoption, arbitrarily monetized.
Nov 25, 2019 16:28:58 GMT 7
bonfield: This forum is almost at 13K total threads, I can't wait to read the topic that pushes it past the mark!
Dec 3, 2019 8:27:58 GMT 7
arvin555: I do not like FB forums because it is difficult to read back Archives. Let us keep this forum alive!
Dec 9, 2019 11:14:09 GMT 7
mylesg: just posted ton of new pics in my thread!
Feb 9, 2020 3:40:25 GMT 7
bonfield: If you think the situation on this forum is bad, you should see what that those creeps Justin Dunning and Kurtis Herperger(Victoria Butterfly Gardens), Willy Chung, and Lloyd Gordon did to the Canadian forums: www.butterflygardens.ca
Jun 1, 2021 7:14:40 GMT 7