Giant Nepenthes alata

[Dave Evans]

The lids are rather different, like with N. robcantleyi, there is often a thickening of the midrib of the lid which connects between the basal keel and the apical "pucker" near or at the front on the smooth alata.

Never seen anything similar on a hairy alata. I'm not sure how these two relate... Perhaps there was some sort of hybridization event that split proto-alata into these two main groups, or maybe they just happen to look very similar and aren't even closely related. The fact the glands and the distributions are so similar seem to be more than just a coincidence...

Are we sure the hairy alata in Luzon and Negros are the same taxon?

[sunbelle]

Jul 7, 2012 3:53:56 GMT 7 Dave Evans said:

The difference between the lids:

Both species have cordate lids, but the shapes are further sub-divided into cordate-orbicular in the smooth alata; and cordate-ellipitical to cordate-oblong in the hairy alata.

As stated in my post on pg 3, the pitcher lids are a different shape.

Perhaps my post before should be in a chart or side by side comparison.
Can anyone help me post something like that?

Thank-you Sunbelle, this apical feature is exactly what I meant by "pucker". It isn't present on the hairy alata But is also seen on N. veitchii, N. robcantleyi and N. truncata. I believe these species along with N. clipeata all have very similar stem/leaf attachments.

Dave,
You know which species is the "king" of the glandular boss? N. maxima.
"Pucker" is not the most scientific word, nipple-like pucker would be more descriptive. Just kidding.

By the way, as a side note: When we noticed N. "Viking" has this glandular boss lid feature and N. mirabilis does not, we were given the "pat on the head" but told it makes no difference in species distinction.


Leeb and Wally,
More differences between the hairy and smooth alata can be seen in the growth habit. The smooth alata stay in a rosette longer, the leaf internode distance is shorter. The tendrils are usually not looped or curled, and the tendrils are shorter when compared to the hairy alata tendrils.

The hairy alata usually start climbing much faster, with longer distance between the internodes. The hairy alata also have longer curly tendrils, they loop around for climbing. Those hairy tendrils loop and curl like crazy, while the smooth alata tendrils usually do not. Those hairy alata are made for climbing. The smooth alata "walks" along the ground, in my humble opinion.

Wally,
The oddball photo "Hairy alata from Aurora on the eastern coast of Luzon" -
What color is the indumentum? From the pic posted it's hard to tell.
Hairy alata has fine white indumentum. The hair in that photo posted looks somewhat dark gold colored and far too thick. Are you sure this is N. alata and not another species?

[ayi]

Hi Michelle/Trent,

A glandular boss cannot be interpreted as a major factor in delimiting species. But, if other characters are present, especially if they are of primary importance, then it provides more weight to the argument.

I still don't understand why a lot of weight has been given on leaf base to stem decurrency nowadays

Anyway, going back to N. alata, here's a photo of my smooth alata with coiled tendril:

[img src="i957.photobucket.com/albums/ae51/ayi_06/IMG_0082.jpg"*][/img*]

The smooth alata stay in a rosette longer, the leaf internode distance is shorter- Agree. But the hairy alatas from Aurora also stay in the rosette stage longer than those from the hairy alatas from the Cordilleras on Central Luzon.

The hairs on that hairy alata from Aurora are brownish-white and quite stiff. In fact they remind me of the hairs of N. hirsuta. Am I sure it's still N. alata? With all these plants, how can I be sure? But N. alata is the most logical choice, at least for the meantime.

Hi Dave,

Yes it's from the Insignes group. Lovely isn't it?

I'm not so sure, but that colony of green 'alatas' with winged uppers appear to be of the glabrous type- but quite different because of the presence of wings. Altitude ca. 1600 m asl. As I said, I failed to find them again, but I found two small plants that look like smooth alatas:

[img src="i957.photobucket.com/albums/ae51/ayi_06/P5215660.jpg"*][/img*]

[img src="i957.photobucket.com/albums/ae51/ayi_06/P5215661.jpg"*][/img*]

Hi Lee,

I believe that what makes leaf venation comparisons between the smooth alata and the hairy alata quite complicated is the fact that there seems to be at least 3 forms of the hairy alata...

I really don't think there is a Nepenthes taxon or group that can taunt us like this.

Wally

[sunbelle]

LeeB,
How do you examine leaf veins?

To the naked eye, the smooth and hairy leaf veins seem almost identical.
Thanks,
Michelle

Wally,
You said "alata from Aurora are brownish-white and quite stiff. In fact they remind me of the hairs of N. hirsuta"

The Luzon hairy alata seem to have very fine white indumentum, from what I have observed.
Have you ever observed other alata populations with thick brown hairs?

Could this be something else, yet another alata relative (but not alata)? Any photos of the traps? Do the pitchers have this brown thick hair on them? Since Aurora is geographically isolated from the other populations, this could be something else from the other typical alata Luzon.

What are the 3 types of hairy alata, in your opinion?

Michelle

[leeb]

Michelle,

it is the pattern of branching of the veins in the leaf that is taxonomically significant.
There are longitudinal veins arising from the leaf base and pennate veins arising from the midrib.
The number of longitudinal veins and how close they are to the mid rib varies, as does the number of pennate veins, the angle they arise from the mid rib at and whether they curve to become parallel to the sides of the leaf.
The patterns they make are thought to be species specific.

Holding a leaf so that the light shines through it may make them easier to see; or peeling the surface tissue off a dead brown leaf to directly observe them may help.

LeeB.

[sunbelle]

LeeB,
Many Thanks. We see what you mean.
Trent and I followed your suggestions and used living specimens against the sunlight to see the venation patterns. The glabrous forms and the indumentata forms have nearly identical patterns upon casual observation. We compared the patterns to albomarginata, rafflesiana and mirabilis globosa to see how they differed, and the differences were striking. All four separate species look different, with the two forms of alata looking alike.
Perhaps they are highland/lowland varieties?
Michelle

[leeb]

Thanks for doing that Michelle.

Based on that it seems likely both forms of N. alata are very closely related; and have only diverged recently.
Hybridisation with another species recently would seem unlikely, as that should alter the venation patterns.

Perhaps they are as you say altitudinal variants.

It still leaves me wondering how the highland variety occurs on Luzon znd Negros but not in between.
It looks like more field studies are needed by local experts.

I wonder how close the patterns are between N. mirabilis and N. mirabilis globosa?

LeeB.

[ayi]

Hi Michelle,

Here are two photos of hairy alatas from Aurora with longish indumentum. These two plants are unrelated:

[img src="i957.photobucket.com/albums/ae51/ayi_06/NepalatahairytypeAurora.jpg"*][/img*]

[img src="i957.photobucket.com/albums/ae51/ayi_06/Picture199.jpg"*][/img*]

Hairy alata, also from Aurora. This is the rarest 'form' of N. alata I have ever come across. There's indumentum on the pitchers, but the hairs are not as prominent on the vegetative parts as on the previous plants:

[img src="i957.photobucket.com/albums/ae51/ayi_06/Nepalatahighlandred1.jpg"*][/img*]

Hairy alata from Negros. I feel this to be closest to the plant shown above (photo by the late Leonardo Co):

[img src="i957.photobucket.com/albums/ae51/ayi_06/NepenthesalataCuernosLLC1a.jpg"*][/img*]

Hairy alata from Cordillera:

[img src="i957.photobucket.com/albums/ae51/ayi_06/ayi337.jpg"*][/img*]

Hairy alata from Western Luzon. I believe this is virtually identical to the Central Luzon highland alata because of the very close similarities in growth, stems (quite rigid), leaves and indumentum:

[img src="i957.photobucket.com/albums/ae51/ayi_06/P5235941.jpg"*][/img*]

Their respective stems and leaf bases:

[img src="i957.photobucket.com/albums/ae51/ayi_06/ayi341.jpg"*][/img*]

[img src="i957.photobucket.com/albums/ae51/ayi_06/P5235949.jpg"*][/img*]

So there, at least three types of hairy alatas, IMHO

No, I have not observed/seen any other alata from other localities with similar indumentum as those from the roughly hairy Aurora alatas. The hairs on the pitchers are somewhat softer to the touch, definitely not as bristly as those on the petioles. The pitchers also are small, being about only 4 inches tall, on the average.

Cheers,
Wally

[sunbelle]

LeeB,
Thank you for your help.

I wonder how close the patterns are between N. mirabilis and N. mirabilis globosa?

You read my mind.


Wally,
LeeB said

It still leaves me wondering how the highland variety occurs on Luzon znd Negros but not in between.

The plant pictured from Negros seems VERY different. The growth habit almost reminds me of N. boschiana. The leaf-tendril attachment and the shape of the leaves are vastly different compared to the other pictures you posted.

Hairy alata from Negros. I feel this to be closest to the plant shown above (photo by the late Leonardo Co):

Why do you feel it's closest to the Aurora alata?

About the alata from Aurora: The first photo you posted above looks like the typical hairy alata. The hairy tendril on the 2nd photo of the alata from Aurora looks like a pipe-cleaner. It's quite interesting how the entire population of Aurora alata are not thick with brown hair. Is it just a few plants?

No, I have not observed/seen any other alata from other localities with similar indumentum as those from the roughly hairy Aurora alatas. The hairs on the pitchers are somewhat softer to the touch, definitely not as bristly as those on the petioles. The pitchers also are small, being about only 4 inches tall, on the average.

Performing as the hirsuta of the Philippines ; )

Regarding the other islands, we have some seed raised "alata" from Sibuyan Island. They were from Borneo Exotics back in 2003. Anyone have comments or insight on these:




And a different alata from Cebu, we raised from seed

[leeb]

There are similar N. alata from Cebu on Flickr on Arddu's photostream, although the ones pictured there seem to have narrower peristomes and wider mouths.
They resemble some of the smooth N. alata from other islands such as Samar also.

The Sibuyan N. alata look like lower or intermediate pitchers and in shape look closer to the hairy N. alata but appear to lack hair.

The smooth N. alata have ridges on the upper pitchers, while the hairy N. alata have fringed wings; it almost looks like the hairy N. alata are retaining features from the lower pitches on the upper ones.
If it is the retention of juvenile characters in the adult form it could be considered neoteny, just as the fringed structures on the lids of seedling Nepenthes pitchers are retained on the lids of some members of the N. tentaculata group.

LeeB.




.

[Dave Evans]

Dear Wally,

Either this is a "trick photo" or this something different again:




By "trick", I mean perhaps the plant somehow looks different in person...? Or other photos...



Sunbelle, there isn't anything I have noticed about sp. from Sibuyan which might indicate it is not a typical smooth alata.

[ayi]

Hi Michelle and Dave,

I said that the red Nep. alata from Aurora and the one from Negros are close mainly because the leaves, down to the colouration of the stems and tendrils, are very very similar, if not identical. I have since lost that Aurora plant from a big flood a few years ago, and I regret not taking photos of its leaves and other vegetative parts.

I actually asked Leonard (who of course is the namesake of N. leonardoi) about this plant, and he also thought it to be N. alata, although he was himself quite surprised to see it in Negros. He confirmed the presence of a basal lid appendage, as well as indumentum on the stems, leaves, tendrils and pitchers. An interesting note here is that Volker once said that he has not seen any Nepenthes from Negros.

When we say 'typical', I think we are talking subjectively here because we might be using the plants seen in cultivation as gauges. For me the typical alatas are those from Cordillera and Western Luzon, primarily because they are very similar to those from Ilocos on Northern Luzon- and N. alata was described from plants collected in Ilocos

I have not been on Sibuyan yet, but from what I know there are plants from low altitudes that some have called 'alata', and plants which look like alata, but which some have said to probably represent a different species. It's been a while since I last saw the discussions regarding this, and I don't think I can still find them on the net. Anyway, if memory serves me right, N. alata var. ecristata has been recorded from Sibuyan too (as well as in Laguna on Luzon).

Michelle, I noticed that low hip on the Cebu N. alata; is that typical? I have seen smooth alatas from Cebu and most look like those from Quezon on Luzon. However, a few that were collected by a local nursery about 3 years ago have really large pitchers (about a foot tall), with very narrow peristomes, large mouths and large lids that look like inverted saddles. Quite unique. All plants of these have green pitchers.

Cheers,
Wally

[Dave Evans]

Jul 11, 2012 18:04:49 GMT 7 ayi said:

Hi Michelle and Dave,

I said that the red Nep. alata from Aurora and the one from Negros are close mainly because the leaves, down to the colouration of the stems and tendrils, are very very similar, if not identical. I have since lost that Aurora plant from a big flood a few years ago, and I regret not taking photos of its leaves and other vegetative parts.

I actually asked Leonard (who of course is the namesake of N. leonardoi) about this plant, and he also thought it to be N. alata, although he was himself quite surprised to see it in Negros. He confirmed the presence of a basal lid appendage, as well as indumentum on the stems, leaves, tendrils and pitchers. An interesting note here is that Volker once said that he has not seen any Nepenthes from Negros.

When we say 'typical', I think we are talking subjectively here because we might be using the plants seen in cultivation as gauges. For me the typical alatas are those from Cordillera and Western Luzon, primarily because they are very similar to those from Ilocos on Northern Luzon- and N. alata was described from plants collected in Ilocos

I have not been on Sibuyan yet, but from what I know there are plants from low altitudes that some have called 'alata', and plants which look like alata, but which some have said to probably represent a different species. It's been a while since I last saw the discussions regarding this, and I don't think I can still find them on the net. Anyway, if memory serves me right, N. alata var. ecristata has been recorded from Sibuyan too (as well as in Laguna on Luzon).

Michelle, I noticed that low hip on the Cebu N. alata; is that typical? I have seen smooth alatas from Cebu and most look like those from Quezon on Luzon. However, a few that were collected by a local nursery about 3 years ago have really large pitchers (about a foot tall), with very narrow peristomes, large mouths and large lids that look like inverted saddles. Quite unique. All plants of these have green pitchers.

Cheers,
Wally

I have grown those alata from Sibuyan too. The only reason BE tagged them with the, "might not be alata" is because we don't know which plant the name alata is supposed to be applied to. And these plants are of the glabrous sort with caducous hairs on the pitcher buds. That particular color form might be unique to Sibuyan, but not the taxon. The description Rob and others at BE read is the one from Jebb and Cheek that contains multiple taxa and mention they start at 800 meters so they simply added the line about how it might not be the "true alata", which is basically true of any "alata".

Apparently the smooth alata starts at 0 meters and up. But on Luzon starts well above sea level? Could this be related to different climates on the Philippine Islands? Can we have places where highlanders grow well in the lowlands because of how the winds blow off the mountains?

[lawdy]

Jul 11, 2012 23:53:45 GMT 7 Dave Evans said:

Apparently the smooth alata starts at 0 meters and up. But on Luzon starts well above sea level? Could this be related to different climates on the Philippine Islands? Can we have places where highlanders grow well in the lowlands because of how the winds blow off the mountains?

Im no expert and frankly out of place, but ive read this entrie thread screaming "different microclimates!" It seems to be the one possibility that would allow such widespread variation in form/function/attitudinal range.

[ayi]

Hi lawdy,

Might be, but it is also worth noting that in both the hairy and smooth types, there exists differences, from subtle to tangible, that makes delimitations of even just one of them quite tricky. One way to look at it is to accept these 'forms' as just variations, but where do we draw the line? Many closely related Nepenthes species- the species pairs- are separated by presence/absence of indumentum and/or habitat and/or altitudinal preferences, but why are we having so much trouble defining the concept of Nepenthes alata? At this point we do not even know how diluted the integrity of many of these plants are, as species. Or, maybe these 'forms' are species/subspecies/varieties in their own right after all, but our current knowledge is still too rudimentary at this stage to allow such possibilities.

I'm glad that you find the time to follow this thread

Wally