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Post by twoton on Aug 28, 2007 14:07:06 GMT 7
During his keynote speech the the Nepenthes Summit, Charles Clarke touched on the topic of high-speed internet connections and how they contribute to endangering wild Nepenthes populations. As an example, he showed a screenshot of this thread here in this forum:  During the following slides and comments, it became clear that he finds this sort of instant communication very dangerous, as you can see from the following pix.    The "proper way" mentioned here is that of the "olden days", when discoverers would quietly go home with their finds, put a plant or two into a herbarium and then sit tight on everything until they finally published their official description. He took the first picture in the thread as an example to show that people familiar with the area would be able to glean enough information to find the location by themselves. Incidentally, the rape of Nepenthes populations by locals and foreigners alike was mentioned and expounded on in a great number of speeches, no matter the topic. To me, his presentation was quite a wake-up call. What's your opinion? |
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Post by lol on Aug 28, 2007 14:11:54 GMT 7
Tell Clarke to shove it. I'm tired of people taking hobbies and games to levels where it can be no longer enjoyable to all, with a level of negative seriousness that does justice to nothing.
***End rant***
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Post by twoton on Aug 28, 2007 14:22:53 GMT 7
Lordy, that was quick :-)
I forgot to mention that during his talk he repeatedly said that this post by Volker et al. was made with the very best of intentions., i.e., he wasn't pissed at the posters, but scared of the implications this technology bears.
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Post by leilani on Aug 28, 2007 16:43:59 GMT 7
* Nature should be discovered through the proper channels? These proper channels are, I suppose, Charles Clark and the old guard. It is no wonder he is scared ...... he is being left behind. Can the good-old-boys of nepenthes taxonomy keep up? I don’t think so. Should the collectors in Thailand wait for Mr. Kurata to finish his description of N. globosa? With all due respect, does he look fast and efficient? Instead of spreading fear . ...... get to work. Instead of being afraid of the speed of information exchange ...... learn to utilize it. Instead of hiding away in the back room of the museum to write your description ...... publish on the internet, share your information and cooperate with others, wilkipedia your work. Times have changed ..... less romance and less personal glory .... the Victorian era is dead. * And terrorists know where you live! * It’s the end of the world! * Who is “us” in this question? The only people that ever see documents are those authorities that issue and check them. Will any of "us" ever see any of Clarks' documents. * We don’t want the SE Asians too interested! It was better when it was a bunch of stuffy white guys! * We don’t want rapid communication. Information is dangerous! * And what about porn? There is lots of porn. * This is happening. Is he saying that it is the fault of the internet? * How does this relate to the internet? * This would be nice. Who is stopping the scientists? (Forget the scientists .... most of this work can be done by technicians.) It’s for sure that Clark can’t be everywhere. Maybe the scientific effort needs to be quicker, more productive and more efficient. Maybe, if the scientists had more people looking over their shoulders and expecting results then, they would be encouraged to work harder and faster. The internet is most fearful to those most insulated and comfortable. FEAR, FEAR, FEAR! Instead of spending time proclaiming our need to keep information secret, hide our discoveries and dodge the boogie-man why not get busy with the work. Organize teams of researchers, share information, and figure out how you are going to rise to the times and occasion. |
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Post by junglemike on Aug 28, 2007 16:58:58 GMT 7
Usually I won't mention the name of the location if I found something new/ interesting (pitcher plant) in that area as I always aware of those commercial collectors always look for info from internet.
I guess there is no harm for someone to share the picture/ news about the new species through internet with hobbyists from overseas as long as they don't disclose the exact location.
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Post by twoton on Aug 28, 2007 17:40:56 GMT 7
Very interesting, guys. I really hope Charles will find time to join us in this discussion (he occasionally lurks here, as we now know :-) ), as I'd love to hear his position on Leilani's points in particular.
Mike: In this day and age of low-cost air carriers and GPS, overseas folks can be in-country and at the sites quicker than you can say "aristolochioides". Plus, local folks all have Internet access, too.
Leilani:
It doesn't, it relates to the new generation of SEA nepenthusiasts.
I think the inevitable is inevitable, but by choosing less obvious pictures and staying more secretive in their descriptions, people could at least delay it until the fast-reaction botanist teams Leilani is suggesting have gotten around to finish their work.
There is also the problem that more stuff is being discovered than scientists can keep up with. How many botanists devote their careers to Nepenthes or at least CPs in general? I think I've met twenty of them in Kuching - the other twenty must have been at the EEE in Holland that weekend. They can't be everywhere - fresh blood is needed. Then again, who starts and pulls through a career as a botanist these days? Academia mostly offers underpaid and insecure jobs; and if you do corporate work, chances are you won't have time to describe new CP species.
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Post by Sockhom on Aug 28, 2007 19:15:35 GMT 7
Then again, who starts and pulls through a career as a botanist these days? Academia mostly offers underpaid and insecure jobs; and if you do corporate work, chances are you won't have time to describe new CP species. Quite true. I don't blame the botanists. Nonetheless, it is also true that they should now actively work with the new technological tools at their disposal. (Besides, weren't some of the last new cp's been described by amateurs?) François. |
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Post by twoton on Aug 28, 2007 19:31:47 GMT 7
Really? Who? Descriptions of new species (flora or fauna) must be done in Latin. That rules out a lot of amateurs. Also, they must have strong knowledge about all the other known species to be able to decide whether something is actually a new species...
I'm not saying it's impossible for amateurs, but it shrinks the number of possible candidates considerably.
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Post by milossula on Aug 28, 2007 20:40:23 GMT 7
I agree with leilani. It is new era of fast communications.How many nepenthes experts use internet and communicate with us ? I dont have fear from internet, but i have fear that botanist work slowly and till they describe new species of nepenthes, they can be damaged by tsunami or another havoc or simply by traffic building,burning etc.Most of the sites are not protected !!!
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Post by merlin on Aug 28, 2007 20:43:28 GMT 7
before reading this thread, i recently had a talk with a taxonomist. he's out in the field most of the time. and he has read volker and company's paper regarding the new find. he told me that there were foreign collectors that came to the peak in palawan looking for the specie after the paper/post had been out in the open. i think the group also hired some locals to search for the plants.
ofcourse this is just a story. i have no basis of proof.
merlin
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Post by Clint Parsons on Aug 28, 2007 20:50:10 GMT 7
The message I get is "Unless you're a renowned taxonomist in the CP-community, you need to shut up and keep your head down."
The bit about seeing the paperwork is interesting, though. I'm sure whoever has the paperwork wouldn't mind showing it to him. I wonder if we'll ever know if he actually asked and was refused before adding that last bullet point?
I fail to see how posting a few pictures BEFORE an official description is put out is worse than posting those same pictures AFTER and official description is released. Hello? Same pictures.
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Post by cindy on Aug 28, 2007 21:16:10 GMT 7
I think this is what Charles Clarke fears, Merlin.
Newly found species should be made known to the relevant authorities in that country and not "exposed" to foreigners via the Internet. People of that country where the new species is endemic should be first to describe the plant, collect samples for the herbarium and put available seeds to TC or cryogenic storage.
The right to the plant belongs to people who live on that land. Not to someone who can afford to fly in within the same day after reading the posts.
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Post by merlin on Aug 28, 2007 22:52:25 GMT 7
what i meant by seeing the paper is seeing the electronic copy of the paper... (to be printed maybe?). he showed me a pdf containing the article.
merlin
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Post by quogue on Aug 28, 2007 22:53:41 GMT 7
Knowledge is best shared methinks.. People that are worried about "what ifs" aren't going to get anywhere cause there's always a "what if" for every situation.
Holding knowledge because it can't be trusted to the "Riffraff" is abit too elitist for my tastes.
I feel people should be able to share their excitement of a new discovery if they wish, it must exhilarating!
Of course the locations are the property of the country it was found in, but making the process completely local is abit xenophobic it seems. Plus it might just take forEVER.
Whoever finds it, gets the credit for the discovery and can make legal field collection.
Remember, locals will poach just as bad... and whomever those that are willing to go through the considerable effort to make these discoveries are the ones who deserve the credit for them, not handing all their work over to some gov't official who goes "yeah, yeah.. great. NEXT!" and the discovery gets buried.
Nepenthes aren't the only things poached in this world after all, alot of animals suffer at the hands of poachers whether it's ivory tusks, shark fins, tropical fish for the aquarium trade.. the list could go on and on............
I was really happy Volker shared his find with us here. That made my day I can remember!
I'd say improved regulation and education would be better than restricting information.
Just my $.02
As for illegal foreign collectors? Shoot em I say, comes with the risk of being a poacher.
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Post by mannyherrera on Aug 28, 2007 23:58:51 GMT 7
I agree with Nate and Leilani. This seems like just another attempt to make something more prestigious and mysterious than it ought to be. This isn't Skull and Bones nor the CIA (or STASI by the sounds of it). I understand the need to potect wild populations. That is simply remedied by not giving out exact location data. That's like someone showing me a photo of Sarracenia in a pine stand and me being able to find out exactly where it is. Promulgating information via the internet has done more help to CP enthusiasm (and probably conservation) than not. This fear was around before the internet. In fact, this type of thinking has been applied to many facets of life.
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