Cultivar-Groups were introduced in Topic I, Thread 6 as an alternative to the concept of grex classification. The Cultivar-Grope method of classification is exceptionally simplistic in that it is based solely upon appearance. A Cultivar-Group is nothing more that a group of plants that look similar to one another. (The degree to which members of these groups of plants correspond to one another is determined by the level of description provided at registration.)
Some would reject cultivar Groups as lacking in specificity to such a degree as to make the concept almost useless. Others my still believe, however, that under appropriate circumstances and toward certain purposes this method of classification may be useful and desirable. Conference participants are invited, in this thread, to post there opinions as regards Cultivar-Group classifications and it's appropriate use.
"The difficulty lies, not in the new ideas, but in escaping from the old ones ..." John Maynard Keynes
WHEN sunbelle ...You believe that a cross (primary, secondary, natural hybrid remakes and horticultural breed species) should be germinated and then raised to a point where “the majority of plants are starting to show their ‘true color’”. ep ..... you believe roughly the same thing in that the seedlings from a grex should be grown to a point where a ‘typical’ specimen’ can be determined.
I believe that plants should be grown beyond seedling stage. (minimum of 3 yrs.) to insure that registry is not wasted on plants that will not survive in the long term.
WHAT sunbelle .... You believe that grex seedling should then be judged by the breeder to be ‘worthy’ (full of ‘wow” factor) and considered deserving of having their heritage recorded by being registered with a new sex respective grex name ep ..... You believe that a grex would be judged by the breeder (or some group) as deserving of a sex respective grex name if it were a primary hybrid. (You feel that secondary or more complex crosses do not produce a ‘typical specimen’ and therefore should not be registered?)
I believe that you are both interpreting a grex registry in the same way, i.e., as an honorarium similar to cultivar registration. A plant is judged by the breeder to be beautiful and of potential market value and is registered and given a grex name in order to better secure that breeder’s interest in the plant as a product.
HOW sunbelle ... Registration would require names, dates, etc and the names of both parent plants. You would also require a picture(s) and description of a ‘true color’ specimen of the grex. ep ..... You would require names, dates, etc. and the names of both parent plants. You would also require a picture of a ‘typical’ grex specimen
You both appear to be thinking much more along the lines of a Cultivar-Group registry than a grex registry. Your emphasis is on showing how the grex specimens are different from all other plants (the function of a cultivar registry or a cultivar-group registry) and not how they are related to other plants by lineage (the purpose of a grex registry).
"The difficulty lies, not in the new ideas, but in escaping from the old ones ..." John Maynard Keynes
Leilani wrote: "You both appear to be thinking much more along the lines of a Cultivar-Group registry than a grex registry. Your emphasis is on showing how the grex specimens are different from all other plants (the function of a cultivar registry or a cultivar-group registry) and not how they are related to other plants by lineage (the purpose of a grex registry)."
No, we don't want these cultivar groups. They have nothing to do with grex naming.
EP is talking about giving names to primary hybrids, a system based on lineage.
We are discussing naming the entire grex, NOT just three or four different looking plants in a cultivar group (which don't even have to be related to be a "cultivar group", I don't even understand how that could be helpful).
sunbelle ...... To be fair, it seems that you and ep desire a system of registry that combines elements of both a grex and a cultivar-group registry. The primary purpose of this system would be to distinguish plants by recognizing them as possessing special qualities of beauty and marketability in the fashion of a cultivar-group registry. You would then judge those plants that possess those qualities as deserving of having their parental lineage documented in the fashion of a grex registry. Plants not meeting these qualifications of beauty and marketability would then be deemed unworthy of lineage documentation, naming and registry. As I have stated repeatedly, and as I have quoted Dr. Schlauer as saying, a grex registry makes no reference to the progeny of a grex by way of qualification as deserving of a grex name but is for the sole purpose of documenting the lineage of a plant. Again, a plant does not need to qualify for inclusion in a family tree by any means other that the facts of birth right. Since, within a grex registry, there are no qualifying prerequisites of beauty or marketability no ‘typical’ specimen or ‘true color’ specimen of the seedling progeny need be produced before inclusion within that system and the only reason for requiring a plant to reach a certain age before being registered would be to assure its survivability in culture and not waste time on registering seedlings that may not have a long term survivability potential. In a cultivar-group registry system a plant would have to meet exactly those prerequisites you and ep are seeking as regards the production of a ‘typical’ or ‘true color’ specimen. This ‘typical’ specimen would be descried either by a written description or by photographic documentation and all other plants would be judged as admissible or not within the group according to their coincidence with that description or picture. The purpose of a cultivar-group registry is not scientific but economic and 'practical' in nature and this would seem to, for the most part, to be what both you an ep are seeking. I know that both you and ep would also value the sort of lineage based registry that a grex system would provide as you both make reference to existing lineage based nepenthes databases as useful and it seems to be that, in order to meet both these conflicting needs, i.e., lineage documentation (inclusive) and a marketing potential and aesthetic based method of grouping (exclusive) that we should consider both systems independently. There is no reason why we cannot have both a grex registry (something new) for the purpose of lineage documentation and a method of group-cultivar registration (an already existing option) for the purposes of plant marketing but it would seem unlikely that we would be able to combine their differing purposes consistently into one registry.
Leilani wrote: "Plants not meeting these qualifications of beauty and marketability would then be deemed unworthy of lineage documentation, naming and registry."
We've said it before, but we'll say it again: You can make lists of hybrids, including the lineage in detail. N. (thorelii-typical x ampullaria spotted) can be registered, recorded, or whatever you want, and if there are a few cultivars they can be named as per the current rules. The selectively bred version of (thorelii purple x ampullaria Giant Red) which turns out 100% red/purple and gigantic seedlings can be given a grex name like 'Ruby Drop' or something like that. All of the seedlings from the same seed pod will have that name, even the runts, because the overall quality standard has been raised. The selectively bred version of thorelii x ampullaria will be in demand, and depending on how many germinate, they will probably have a higher price and value because of their quality.
No one is saying you can't make listings or a registry including all the details about parentage of the un-named grex of the more common looking (thorelii x ampullaria), but to give every new grex a name wouldn't be practical.
The bottom line is that giving a new grex name would add an extra step by needing to look up and research the parentage of "lesser known" hybrid names.
What we are describing is more like the Japanese system, and has nothing to do with cultivar group names. The Japanese give each new grex a name, even if the same parents are used in a remake of the cross. Michelle doesn't want to do that because, for the most part, it just adds an extra step of having to look up a name, like Dashy Koto... which we can't the remember parentage off hand, even though we just looked it up recently.
EP is suggesting naming similar to the orchid system. It raises so many questions, I don't even have time to write them all. ... and EP doesn't have time to answer.
What we are suggesting is keeping track of lineage, as well as selecting the finest hyrbids and species to give names. Cultivar groups can have different lineage and have the same name... I have major problems with concept, and don't understand why you're confusing our suggestion of giving select grex names.
So your saying that all greges can be given names of the sort ‘A x B’ but only those considered, by the breeder, to have “raised the standard” should be given a personalized grex name?
The trouble is that, unless you do something along the lines of a review panel of ‘experts’, you leave ‘worthiness’ to the subjective judgment of each individual breeder and hence, you don’t have a rule at all. You can suggest that breeder’s only give personalized names to greges that are ‘worthy’ but that may mean something totally different to different breeders.
If a breeder wished to register his grex in the ‘A x B’ format that is great but you would still probably want some sort of descriptive attachment in order to distinguish one ‘A x B’ cross from another. I think that if you are going to allow personalized names at all that there should be no restriction on what plants get personalized names. If a grower makes a cross between his only two nepenthes, produces seed, germinates that seed and grows the plants out beyond the seedling stage then, just like the big guys, he should have the option of naming that grex after his mother or his dog if he choses.
Suppose our grower makes an ugly bunch of ventriboring plants and names this grex N. Bulldog (after his mother). So what? I think by his effort he earned the right to place his desired moniker on his creation no matter how you or I may judge it’s beauty of market value. A name can be a nice sales feature but the cream will rise to the top whether it has a personalized or an ‘A x B’ format name. If our one-trick breeder names his plant N. Princess Diana (after his dog) it might sound better but I doubt it will make much difference in sales.
it just adds an extra step of having to look up a name, like Dashy Koto.
You are still going to need to look up every personalized name that does not come out of your own nursery. Is it any harder to look up a personalized name than it is to scroll down through a number of listing of thorelii x amp looking for some appended descriptor that indicates the grex in question?
Why don't you have a problem with the worthiness of cultivars? The same judgement could be made for a group of siblings.
Leilani wrote: "The trouble is that, unless you do something along the lines of a review panel of ‘experts’, you leave ‘worthiness’ to the subjective judgment of each individual breeder and hence, you don’t have a rule at all. You can suggest that breeder’s only give personalized names to greges that are ‘worthy’ but that may mean something totally different to different breeders."
No, a panel of experts already exists, and they are the breeders and growers. If a few ugly and dinky hybrids get new grex names because someone thinks they are special, that's ok, it's better than thousands of new hybrid names. The breeder would have to explain why they think their grex is worthy, and what else they are comparing the seedlings to.
I know, there are some people who don't like Predator, like Nate (lol). Someone else's personal opinion has nothing to do with the EP's hybrids, or other Nep collectors who desire Predator for their collection. A panel of experts is a bad idea. We don't want politics and "buddy systems" in naming Nep grexes. No one tells the Orchid breeders the can or can't name a variety (cultivar).
Leilani wrote: "You are still going to need to look up every personalized name that does not come out of your own nursery. Is it any harder to look up a personalized name than it is to scroll down through a number of listing of thorelii x amp looking for some appended descriptor that indicates the grex in question?"
Yes, it is harder to research because the new name adds the extra step to find out the parentage. Do you turn a blind eye to other nurseries hybrids? We don't.
Leilani wrote: "Suppose our grower makes an ugly bunch of ventriboring plants and names this grex N. Bulldog (after his mother). So what? I think by his effort he earned the right to place his desired moniker on his creation no matter how you or I may judge it’s beauty of market value."
What are the ventriboring hybrids being compared to? Like we've said, if someone wants to name a boring hybrid grex, it is no different than someone naming a boring cultivar. They are supposed to have reasons for naming the cultivar. The unpopular ones don't really have any effect on us...
... until we say "What was Bulldog again?" and we're helpless without a listing.
Last Edit: Oct 31, 2006 19:10:31 GMT 7 by sunbelle
The question “ Is it worthy?” should never come up in grex registration. Unlike a grex registry where the purpose is to show lineage or how the plant in question is related to other plants, the purpose of cultivar registry is to show how the plant in question is different from all other plants and therefore ‘special’ or ‘worthy’ of that designation ......
The breeder would have to explain why they think their grex is worthy
to a panel of experts that
What? I know of no such ‘panel of experts’. Who are they? How did they get on the panel? When do they meet? What makes their aesthetic judgment better than mine?
Oh! Wait ...
A panel of experts is a bad idea.
Yes, it is harder to research because the new name adds the extra step to find out the parentage.
It does not. If you went to look up Trent’s ‘N. Ruby Drop’ you would go to that listings and it would say “thorelii purple x ampullaria Giant Red”. Where is the “extra step”?
Your objections to having to look things up is trivial. You have to look up phone numbers in the phone book, words in the dictionary and plant names in the registry. If you really want to make it easier then ban personalized grex names altogether and require that everything be labeled in the ‘A x B’ format with additional nursery or date descriptor appended and you don’t have to look up anything at all. There are only two reasons I can see for having them in the first place: as marketing tools and out of vanity. Neither of these reasons relates directly to the purpose of a grex registry.
For clarification.: Leilani states the sole purpose of a registry is to record the parentage (lineage) of a hybrid. Assigned names are really only for the purposes of marketing or vanity. May I propose a third reason: recognition of a desirable (or high quality-whatever that definition may be) cross. The same guidelines suggested for differentiating a 'high quality or unique' cultivar could be applied to greges. This would serve a practicality purpose, and that is not having hundreds of names for the same cross-even though they may be different clones used, and still valid as a registered (A x B) cross. The third reason for assigning a name is really closely tied to the marketing purposes, (or trading, if you like). Note EP does not name all his greges, only those that show great "Wow!" potential. Don't think they've named a dog yet, so these quality judgements can be made. (Trent's opinion is EP should name MORE of their hybrid greges). Will some abuse the system, and name every green mirabilis x gracilis hybrid they can? Yes. But they will sink to the bottom, and disappear.
Leilani states: The question “ Is it worthy?” should never come up in grex registration.
I agree.. but for assigning a grex name (like Bluegill, be it for marketing or vanity), the quality issue should be employed. I think I see where Michelle is frustrated. Neither one of us are against the idea of registering A x B crosses. Michelle has a justified problem with all of them being named. There may be a problem with many grower/hybridizers having to do detailed descriptions of both parents, especially if one or both parents are popular plants, ie. How many times do you want to log a different detailed descriptions of Splendiana coming from growers as diverse as yourself, or Manny or some other grower out there we don't even know? Perhaps a log of descriptions is needed for popular parents, like Splendiana, but how about species like that female spathulata that is so popular of the west coast of the US.?
Personally, I don't think I would bother to register a grex unless I felt it was "worthy". I see no problem with individual growers determining the worthiness of their greges as the rest of the world will no doubt judge their worthiness as well.
I think one reason for including a picture of a "typical" grex specimen is to determine which clones look exceptional enough to be considered cultivars. Perhaps this "typical" specimen could become the first cultivar of the grex.
I don't like the idea of cultivar-groups.
A day without Nepenthes is like a day without sunshine! -- steve
Multiple description of the same plant could be a problem but I’m not sure what level of description we are talking about anymore. A log might be the answer.
I like the idea of a ‘typical’ grex specimen but, as ep pointed out, in other than primary hybrids there may be so much variation among seedling that it can make the determination of a ‘typical’ specimen somewhat problematic. In general, I think it would work.
"The difficulty lies, not in the new ideas, but in escaping from the old ones ..." John Maynard Keynes
Photos can at least provide some sort of visual guide for complex hybrids. Photos can also capture subtle details, such as spotting patterns or pitcher shape, that can be nearly impossible to put into words. Sort of like a horticultural version of herbarium specimens...I could even see photographing the entire plant to show leaves and growth habit, but again, this is getting to complicated for anyone not well versed in photography and would require lots of storage space for a ton of photo files.
plantguyty1: I'm looking for pollen.
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plantguyty1: Does anybody need pollen? I have N. Miranda it's the first time it flowered for me so I do not know if its sterile or a good candidate. Is there anybody with an active female that would like to give my pollen a shot?
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siravi: im looking for seeds, anyone?
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samu0945: I'm looking for N. Aristolochioides
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borneo: Yes, they work superbly. But you don't need expensive lights, cheap ones work well too.
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mylesg: i havent checked in here for a while, why does it seem all the CP forums have lost their once strong activity? the trade/sale section used to be so active and now its a ghost town. where is everybody hanging out these days for a strong online CP community?
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mylesg: Happy holidays to everyone out there!
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lance: Everyone left the forums and moved to facebook groups.
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mylesg: yes, facebook groups will never have same feel as this place once did
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etiennecancio: perhaps we can try to revitalize the old forums? i always found them to be much more convenient than facebook groups at least hah
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mylesg: i refuse to abandon this place, i am posting in my grow thread with many photos and always there to answer any questions just built new grow room and tons of pitcher shots!
Nov 6, 2019 21:17:59 GMT 7