Thanks for obliging the request with those pics Rob. This is the first time we have seen another similar individual to the famous queen. For sure, these plants seem closer in appearance to an ovata as Simon pointed out. I am even more intrigued to read the journal article that relates it to be closer to a veitchii. Another thing we need to remember is that species are always in constant evolution. Without genetic analysis, one cannot clearly identify which taxon N. robcantleyi (I would personally like n. robcantleyii) resembles. I think this was brought up many years ago, but it is possible that this taxon (or whatever is left of it in the wild) may demonstrate speciation or out selection in the general environment. Its sad that the region these plants were first collected is now logged. However, i am extremely glad to see the ray of hope with Andy's pics. Hope enough exploration can be performed before this region is also lost to logging. Now that the Phillippines is a hot spot for nepenthes, which other species grow sympatrically in this region?
Well, lots. I haven't been up to Mt. Pasian, but the surrounding mountains have copelandii/ceciliae/alata, petiolata/pulchra, merrilliana/surigaoensis, mindanaoensis and some hybrids, which might be soon 'discovered' as new species The truncatas here in the neighboring province of Bukidnon (where Andy took the images) are generally on the dark red side, a bit more than the Pasians. I will take a closer look at their peristomes tomorrow (daylight!), you guys got me curious ;D
PS: Especially the petiolata/pulchra thingies have a lot of truncata in it IMHO. Just check the low-res blotches in the opening, size, etc.
Post by F R e N c H 3 z on Dec 28, 2011 23:20:08 GMT 7
I hope I am not the only confused here when I see that QoH is now the new species. According to the link, the origin of the royal truncatas are identical. www.carnivorousplants.it/truncata.htm
I would assume that King of Spades would also display the same distinguishing characteristics as QoH which would then also classify it as the new species. Am I incorrect in this logic or is there a post that I missed? If my logic is indeed correct I would have thought the news to be 'Royal truncatas deemed new species' If I am incorrect I would think that the batch or recent QoH x KoS seedlings to be simply hybrids of N. robcantleyi x N. truncata and not a species within itself UNLESS both parents indeed were classified as the new N. robcantleyi.
"Two particularly black coloured plants have been called Nepenthes 'Queen of Hearts' and Nepenthes 'King of Spades' a third and a fourth individual also got their own cultivar names: Nepenthes 'King of Hearts' and Nepenthes 'King of Clubs'). These four plants belong to a group of nine dark pitchered "Nepenthes truncata" which have been raised from seed collected in 1997 within a highland population (two dark plants actually) from Mindanao, Philippines. This population of "different" truncata is now extinct in the wild, or so it seems.
All the recently offered offsprings (ie Nepenthes 'Queen of Hearts' x Nepenthes 'King of Spades') and the nine former individuals belong to the newly described Nepenthes Robcantleyi Cheek."
Post by F R e N c H 3 z on Dec 28, 2011 23:53:42 GMT 7
Thank you Francois, are you a member of Nordic Journal of Botany or did you purchase the article? I am unable to access anything more than the abstract and it looks like my University may not be able to get this via interlibrary loan due to how recent this article is
Post by marcello catalano on Dec 29, 2011 1:01:54 GMT 7
I added robcantleyi to the code database, if anybody finds some other things I should update on that species' page, please let me know: www.carnivorousplants.it/aaa.htm I made the story short, just enough for people to understand, I don't want to write a book ...
Well, lots. I haven't been up to Mt. Pasian, but the surrounding mountains have copelandii/ceciliae/alata, petiolata/pulchra, merrilliana/surigaoensis, mindanaoensis and some hybrids, which might be soon 'discovered' as new species
Well...I think there is a bit of discrepancy on the definition of species.Personally, I have no objections in defining a hybrid as a species. Heck, hybridization can be one of the mechanisms of speciation. More so in genera like nepenthes, where species are capable of fertilizing one another. DNA testing is the gold standard for defining species in animals, but this hasn't been employed for flora as much. A similar example in the past is splitting edwardsiana from macrophylla. But one thing is for sure: This opens up the door for the maxima taxon and alata taxon. There is quite a mess in there.
The truncatas here in the neighboring province of Bukidnon (where Andy took the images) are generally on the dark red side, a bit more than the Pasians. I will take a closer look at their peristomes tomorrow (daylight!), you guys got me curious ;D
I would be really interested to see more of these plants Volker. It would be great if you can share some pics with us.
As we all know when seed is collected from the wild most of the factors that limit survival of hybrids are gone and therefore we get a lot of hybrids germinating in wild collected species seed. Therefore without the significant human involvement we would not see a lot of these hybrids. This is also relevant to the black truncatas as there was significant human involvement and this seed most probably would not have germinated in the wild as the plants seem to be rare and therefore have factors limiting them. Another significant point to demostrate this is the photo by Andy in his recent trip. It was the only one they saw. Not to say there may not be more as new areas are explored. Why Martin Cheek did not pick this up, I am not aware.
This to me makes them a cultivar. Rob said originally that there was a percentage that were different in the group of seedlings. Maybe if I ask him nicely he will post photos showing these? Rob?
Well yes, it does make them a cultivated variety. However, if it is true these different plants consistently flower at a different season and occupy a different niche, terrestrial vs. epiphyte, then there very well could be a strong ecological separation. Rob has named them as a cultivars of N. truncata, but now Dr. Martin Cheek has named not just Rob's cultivars, but all plants (hopefully more persist in the wild!) as N. robcantleyi. Each kind of name is a slightly different tool; for a different use. The Latin binomial covers all individuals of the natural species; based on Dr. Cheek's theory.
Regardless of Rob's original intent, if these are a different species, a different species they are. You'll have take that argument up with God. I'm not 100% convinced as, like Sockhom, I haven't actually studied these plants in person. But what I'm reading seems pretty solid.
I would not be surprised there are a couple of hybrids out there... From locations, like Pasian, where the two species overlap. Hybrids, when present, nearly always confuse the issues of ID'ing new species since they can appear to bridge the characteristics of two species into one. When its really three different species, one being the hybrid.
These are some really bad companies, all shells of Plantron Inc., so don't order from them unless you want small and dead plants they don't want to refund:
Farmer Seed and Nursery
Four Seasons Nursery
House of Wesley
Richard Owen Nursery
How do garbage companies like these stay in business, ripping people off year
Rob, Our original truncata parents are over 25 years old and I know 2 of them were wild collected in the Mindanao area. The other two we bought from a collector and I believe these had similar origins. I do not believe that there are any highland/lowland truncatas but all intermediate. However with Nepenthes altitude classification I assume ours are lowland. We have bred and sold progeny over the years and noticed varying amounts of red on pitchers etc. but did not pay much heed to it until Sunbelle showed us a photo of an all red one we had sold them years ago. We then kept back the most colourful ones and concentrated on breeding them in different configurations. We also bred others and are now up to 4th generation progeny. We also kept some squat ones which seem to take after our original female. As the pic shows below, this original female is similar in shape to your QoH. There is also some other pics to show wings and flared peristomes which only partially roll back. A couple of questions for you Rob. Was there any other truncata plants that germinated with the 9 black truncata seed? If so what were they and what did they look like? Also Rob, and don't get me wrong as you sometimes do, what else did Martin compare the black truncatas to besides your Pasian ones? From what I gather the differences that are being cited by others, as being in the paper, are all what one would expect from hybrids. I have probably got a few taxonomists offside from my comments but I don't know how they can call some plants species by studying limited plants in the wild the like of which are all governed by natural factors in their breeding. Therefore they only get a limited view of what they are observing in a limited area. Until they observe their intereaction with the limiting factors removed, such as in a greenhouse, they are at best hypothesising. Don't get me wrong, I know this is how we have got all species and yes, mostly they breed true but I also know from 30 years of breeding, more accurately, how Nepenthes react. We have probably culled more hybrids than you or any other nursery , that I am aware of, has made. So if you wonder why I am so strong in my debate on this topic, this is why. Not that I am saying that the black truncatas are definitely not species as there is some evidence there that points to them being just that but I am pointing out things that sitting in a corner with a magnifying glass can't tell you.
Hi Andy. Can you tell us if there were any other truncatas in the vicinity of the black one in your pic?
It is my understanding that a species is defined and delimited from another by a set of consistent traits; it may be (for example) two primary traits or three or four secondary ones, or a combination of primary and secondary characters. I don't think any nepenthologist has ever attempted to make such categories based on various Nepenthes parts though, and it can be quite subjective from one author to the other, but the point is: it is the set of distinct traits that make Nepenthes robcantleyi different from N. truncata. So if we see a N. truncata with dark pitcher colouration and flaring peristomes but whose other traits are still within the accepted norm for N. truncata, then it is still N. truncata.
Plants can be described as new, based from seed-grown material, actually.
Nevertheless, I find it questionable why the new species gets tagged as more closely related to N. veitchii rather than to N. truncata. Or maybe I'm missing something.
Geoff, aren't (most of) these plants you showed us already line-bred specimens? It is a known fact that plants line bred to emphasize desirable qualities end up looking very different from their wild ancestors.
But like Geoff, I also am interested to know what the other seedlings look like, from the original batch. From what I understand, there were also plants in the locus classicus that weren't 'black'.
I have always voiced my dissatisfaction as to how our Nepenthes gets named- most of the time they were named after someone or from their place of origin- while the Sumatran ones mostly get the coolest epithets. But personally, I've no trouble with N. attenboroughii or N. leonardoi- people who are in no way involved with the taxon in question but who deserved the honour of having these named after them. As for N. robcantleyi, well, it was Rob who, correct me if I'm wrong, introduced these plants into cultivation, so I guess he deserves it.