black truncata: a new species?

[rokosauros]

Without any offense meant or directed to BE and EP, but need we hear and face this pointless bickering that seems rather business oriented than the introduction of a new, exciting and magnificent species?

[ep]

What a predictable answer, Rob.
Maybe way off topic but at least it brings the people in to read it. Probably good promotion for prospective investors

Currently facing insignificant competition and maintaining a minimum of three year head-start on any potential future competitor.

You cannot read it any other way.
Under a heading of 'Significant Advantages', how else can it be read?
I know it is promotional, I know it is business but the statement is there.
I really don't care Rob, I wish you well in your venture but a fact is a fact.

Regarding our statement that you copied, that's true, we are and have the most experience in Nepenthes hybridization and cultivar breeding. However it is not under a heading of 'Significant Advantages', it is a fact as we know it and we did not say that any other growers/nurseries are insignificant competition, you did.

Dave: Thanks for the explanation.
The point I am making is that the Cultivated Plant Code states the following.

The Cultivated Plant Code emphasizes that different cultivated plants may be accepted as different cultivars, even if they have the same genome, while cultivated plants with different genomes may be regarded as the same cultivar. The production of cultivars generally entails considerable human involvement although in a few cases it may be as little as simply selecting variation from plants growing in the wild (whether by collecting growing tissue to propagate from or by gathering seed).

As we all know when seed is collected from the wild most of the factors that limit survival of hybrids are gone and therefore we get a lot of hybrids germinating in wild collected species seed. Therefore without the significant human involvement we would not see a lot of these hybrids. This is also relevant to the black truncatas as there was significant human involvement and this seed most probably would not have germinated in the wild as the plants seem to be rare and therefore have factors limiting them. Another significant point to demostrate this is the photo by Andy in his recent trip. It was the only one they saw. Not to say there may not be more as new areas are explored. Why Martin Cheek did not pick this up, I am not aware.Thanks.

Geoff

[borneo]

Without any offense meant or directed to BE and EP, but need we hear and face this pointless bickering that seems rather business oriented than the introduction of a new, exciting and magnificent species?

I couldn't agree more.

Now then, there was some talk of people maybe not being able to tell the difference between the new species and the Pasian N. truncata. They really are very different at a glance, not just the colour as the Pasian truncata can sometimes be quite dark (there were at one time a lot of seed-grown plants and 43 TC clones issued) and it's likely that some of the plants of the new species in circulation may not be as dark as others. Look for wings on the pitchers - The Pasian N. truncata has vestigal wings only and also has fine peristome ribs where the new species (I'm actually a bit embarrassed to use the new name) has peristome ribs that are much more pronounced and have at least double the spacing. Differences in glandular structure are detailed in the paper - when it's available. I'm off for a cup of tea now but in a few minutes I'll add a photo to this post to illustrate the point.

[Dave Evans]

Dear Geoff,

I agree, Cultivated Plant Code does say that. But please understand they are simply allowing multiple clones to be identified as a particular cultivar, it is not requirement!

Some species are only annuals, and thus all cultivars of such species and/or hybrids have to have slightly different DNA each generation, but they still also have to have that or those unique traits that set it apart from all its relatives. Some of the DNA of a species/hybrid isn't actually relevant to maintaining the characteristics which set a particular cultivar apart from the rest. As an aside for some perspective, humans and chimps share 97% the same DNA and we're not even in the same genus!

Now, in the case where the characteristics cannot be maintained via seed production, then other clones of the same grex/hybrid/species should not be considered as the same cultivar. It simply depends on how specific your cultivar is.

For example; say someone breeds a lowland, fast growing race of N. rajah. Males and female alike. Well, if this trait is stable enough, then you could in theory grow such a cultivar from seed without watering down the cultivar characteristics.

[borneo]

OK, as promised I dug out a few photos.

First a fairly typical Pasian N. truncata:

www.borneoexotics.com/images/Nepenthes truncata on exhibit 2.jpg[/img]

Note vestigal wings and fine ribbed peristome.

Now the N. robcantleyi 'QoH':

www.borneoexotics.com/images/Nepenthes_robcantleyi_Queen_of_Hearts_inBorneo_Exotics_nursery 2.jpg[/img]

And here's a comparison of peristomes. The scale of the photos isn't quite the same, the peristome on the right is actually a bit magnified compared to the one on the left so the ribs are actually finer than they appear here:



Please do note that I'm not pointing out primary characteristics that differentiate the species from one another, there's far more to it than that, but just a simple way of knowing which species you're looking at. These days there's probably more N. robcantleyi in collections around the world than the Pasian N. truncata.

By the way, if anyone thinks I gave Martin Cheek herbarium material with the proviso that he named the plant after me, they don't know Martin very well. He explains in his paper why HE chose the name. Personally, if I were ever to have a species named after me I would far rather it had been simply N. cantleyi but there's a technical issue with that - also explained in the paper. When he told me what he intended to call it, I thought he was joking - I really did and wasn't really sure until he sent me the paper a couple of weeks back.

[ep]

Dave, I used the whole paragraph but the part I was meaning was the following,

The production of cultivars generally entails considerable human involvement although in a few cases it may be as little as simply selecting variation from plants growing in the wild (whether by collecting growing tissue to propagate from or by gathering seed).

And to quote from my previous post,

As we all know when seed is collected from the wild most of the factors that limit survival of hybrids are gone and therefore we get a lot of hybrids germinating in wild collected species seed. Therefore without the significant human involvement we would not see a lot of these hybrids. This is also relevant to the black truncatas as there was significant human involvement and this seed most probably would not have germinated in the wild as the plants seem to be rare and therefore have factors limiting them. Another significant point to demostrate this is the photo by Andy in his recent trip. It was the only one they saw. Not to say there may not be more as new areas are explored. Why Martin Cheek did not pick this up, I am not aware.

This to me makes them a cultivar.
Rob said originally that there was a percentage that were different in the group of seedlings. Maybe if I ask him nicely he will post photos showing these? Rob?

[borneo]

That's better Geoff!

When we grew out the seeds, we were watching really closely as there was a theory (actually I think it was Ch'ien Lee) that hypothesised that maybe this plant was a hybrid between N. truncata and something really bizarre that may have become extinct in the recent past due to deforestation. For a while we thought some of the seedlings had less truncate leaves than others but as time went by that difference grew out so was probably just cultural. I can't speak for all 3,000 + plants as many were shipped out very small but we still have just over 300 plants here from that grex plus 550 individual clones out of the lab and they all seem very stable in form with only minor differences in colouration. Many of them are about a foot across now. I haven't heard any reports from anyone else about strange characteristics. It seems we are dealing with a stable species. It also flowers out of sequence with the Pasian N. truncata, at least it did in 1997, hence the necessity for 2 seed collections.

One of the individuals we have however appears it may be polyploidal. This happens sometimes in nature and is, I believe, possibly the explanation for the gigantic N. rafflesiana I came across in the 1980's. Photo below which many of you have probably seen before. Plants grown from seeds collected from the plant in the photo below turned out to be pretty much standard size. You will know about that Geoff, we were all disappointed by that one.

[ep]

The pics below are of 2 of our 3rd generation truncatas.
You can see they both have quite coarse peristomes and one has wings. I know the pictures are not all that clear but I have lost the full size ones in a computer crash.
I know the peristomes are still not as coarse as the QoH but they are just about the same as KoS which I understand is the same 'species'.
So these alone are not significant factors. The flower spikes on our truncatas get to a similar size as well.

[borneo]

I don't think I'm saying that N. truncata never has wings, just that the Pasian highland ones don't in my experience, which is one easy way for growers to tell them apart. Neither the wings or the coarseness of the peristome are characteristics that define this species from a taxonomic standpoint.

I'm wondering about the parentage of your plants? Are they highland in origin and where did they originate?

[vraev]

Very interesting plants Geoff. I think the next logical question is how many of that third generation ended up looking like the second plant you got there. Seems like the presence of wings is a recessive trait in this species.

Rob, can you please show us any detailed shots of the 'king of spades' or even better, the 'king of hearts'. I always thought that from the pictures you showed us earlier, the king of spades looks more like a dark truncata than the queen of hearts. Also, I hope that the type specimen that needs to be deposited into the herbarium wasn't one of these magnificent plants. It would be a shame to loose such a vigorous individual.

[Sockhom]

Hello,

Very interesting thread.
And I'm happy that the atmosphere has relaxed a bit .

I would like to add a few comment as someone who is interested in taxonomy and who have followed those "black truncata" from a horticultural and taxonomic point of view for quite a long time.
I have studied the description of N. robcantleyi a few times already. Despite that, I am absolutely not in position to criticize as I have never studied the "black truncata" in the flesh nor do I have observed wild N. truncata. I can only rely on Martin Cheek's description and Rob's own observations.

First of all, you have to understand that the space between the ribs and the wings are the most conspicuous features, ie the most easiest to observe. They are not necesarily the most important.

The paper highlights the following features which are more fundamental but less conspicuous: the potential presence of bracts in the flowers, the glands nature and distribution (close to N. veitchii) and the dome peristome (that I can already observe on my seedlings: carnivorousockhom.blogspot.com/2011/11/nepenthes-truncata-black-looking-good.html

According to the description, those features with the combination of the wings, the peristome and a few other things make it a new species.
It can happen that other species (especially the closest relative as in the case of N. truncata here) can occasionally develop common features such as the N. truncata with wings that Geoff just showed. In the same fashion, N. ramispina can develop the eyespot of N. reinwardtiana. But as far as I know, truncata do not often develop true wings in the largest pitchers.

But if the combination of features of N. robcantleyi are stable, then they do represent a significant difference with N. truncata.
Whether it deserves a specific rank is to the judgement of the scientist who wrote the paper. We are all invited to publish a counter argument if we're not happy with it .

What surprised me the most is that the description states N. veitchii to be the closest relative to N. truncata (because of the glands structure and pattern) and not N. truncata.

I would love to see a close up of the the lid underside of N. robcantleyi, N. veitchii and N. truncata. (hint, hint ;D)


All the best,

François.

[threeskins]

wow this threads really spiced up what until now was a pretty dull Xmas!!!

[borneo]

Here you go:

King of Spades:

www.borneoexotics.com/images/Nepenthes truncata King of Spades in Borneo Exotics Nursery.jpg[/img]

King of Clubs:

www.borneoexotics.com/images/King of Clubs.jpg[/img]

All six plants are coming into flower now. Some of them resemble each other closely and we wouldn't normally give them different cultivar names but I think people generally want to know the parentage of any plants they have and also when we exhibit, people always seem to want to know if it's the same plant they saw a previous year or a different one.

Queen of Hearts got filmed after Chelsea this year for a 3D documentary narrated by David Attenborough, so she's probably the most famous and well travelled Nepenthes we have.

Herbarium material sure is an issue. It's being collected in bits and pieces when we can. We don't yet have enough for the isotype we want to donate to Manila Herbarium.

[threeskins]

the peristome sure does have a an 'ovata' like appearance.

[rokosauros]

Dec 28, 2011 18:54:20 GMT 7 borneo said:

All six plants are coming into flower now.

Oh dear. I'm expecting a new batch of royal seedlings now! Looking forward to the future for more N. robcantleyi plants to be released.

Looking at Geoff's N. truncata's picture, I can't help but speculate whether there would be such thing as a recessive gene (perhaps the one that governs the dark to black colour) that slowly comes out over the generations of N. truncata (F2, F3, F4 etc...). Doesn't hurt to dream a bit, doesn't it?